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Need to Know: Redskins vs. Ravens by the numbers—Breaking a punt return drought

Oct 10, 2016, 5:19 AM EDT


Here is what you need to know on this Monday, October 10, six days before the Washington Redskins host the Philadelphia Eagles.


Today’s schedule: Jay Gruden news conference 3 p.m., CSN and

Days until: Eagles @ Redskins 6; Redskins @ Lions 13; Redskins vs. Bengals in London 20

Redskins vs. Ravens by the numbers

—The Redskins won in Baltimore against the Ravens for the first time ever and for the first time against any opponent since they beat the Colts in Memorial Stadium on October 23, 1955.

—The Redskins allowed the Ravens to score 10 points, the fewest they have allowed since Week 2 of 2015 (10 vs. Rams). The last time they allowed a team to score fewer than 10 points was in 2012 (6 vs. Eagles).

—Jamison Crowder’s 85-yard punt return for a touchdown was the first TD punt return for the Redskins since October 26, 2008 when Santana Moss took one back 80 yards against the Lions. That is a drought of 108 games.

—Crowder’s return was the longest scoring punt return for the Redskins since Antwaan Randle El brought one back 87 yards against the Colts in 2006.

—Ryan Kerrigan got a sack at the end of the first half, the 50th of his career. He joins Dexter Manley and Charles Mann as the only Redskins with at least 50 career sacks (note that sacks have only been an official stat since the 1982 season).

—The Redskins are now 3-2. They have not been over .500 after five games since the 2011 season.

—The Redskins held the Ravens to three third down conversions in 15 attempts (20%). After the Raven’s initial drive (2-2 on third down) they converted just 1 of 13 (7.6%).

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In case you missed it 

  1. abanig - Oct 10, 2016 at 5:41 AM

    I thought we’d get boat raced in this game like in 08. It wasn’t pretty and we needed all phases but we won and our D played great bend but don’t break after the 1st q. Good adjustments by Barry.

    We’ve won two road games against two teams that most think could be in the playoff hunt at the end of this year along with us. The wind obviously affected our passing game but we did enough to win.

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    • redskins12thman - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:22 AM

      Great job by the Redskins, especially the Defense and Special Teams, to pull out the win. So glad for strong defensive play and capitalizing on Ravens O-line shuffles. Disappointed that offense didn’t do more to seal the deal and make the ending less dramatic. If Mosley doesn’t fumble that ball out of the end zone, I’m unsure we are all happy right now…

      Great job by everyone for limiting penalties; that was critical to strong performance.

      It was definitely a character win by the Redskins, but we still need to:

      1. have a better run defense (at least tackling and 3rd down defense was much better)
      2. have a better running attack (I thought there were times we could have run outside more)
      3. more mobility in the pocket (Cousins looks wooden at time)

      Now onto a tougher stretch in the season. Sure would like to beat the Eagles at home! Lions showed that can be done!

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      • abanig - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:26 AM

        After giving up 74 yards on the first two drives, our run d only surrendered 44 yds the final 3 quarters and about half of that was because Nacho missed a solo tackle after around a 10 yard gain.

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      • abanig - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:33 AM

        Actually 28 yards of West’s 44 yards in the final 3 quarters was on the run where he made Nacho miss. If Nacho makes that tackle, West’s total is probably only 25 through TE final 3 qrts

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      • redskins12thman - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:47 AM

        Inexplicably, West only got 11 carries on the day; I thought that was the Ravens’ biggest play calling mistake. I was surprised that Dixon didn’t do better on his three carries (sometimes RBs need more reps).

        Don’t get me wrong; best defensive performance by Redskins all season by far!

        I forgot to mention great pursuit by Nsekhe and Scherff on Mosley which contributed to him letting go of the ball! Great job by them

        The fact that ST line let someone through again was troubling; thank goodness it was only a partially blocked punt that didn’t hurt us.

        Reply Report comment
        • chimps000 - Oct 10, 2016 at 8:41 AM

          yea i thought ravens should have called more
          runs especially in first half… their wrs suck, flacco had some good throws and they let him down.

        • COSSkinsFan - Oct 10, 2016 at 9:29 AM

          Thankfully it seems to be a well kept secret for our opponents. If you have rb averaging 5yds or more a carry and you need 10 yards, probably give him the ball 2-3 times and he’ll get a first down. That said HTTR, keep finding ways to win.

      • Trey Gregory - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:31 PM

        Preston Smith dives me nuts. You want to know why our run D was so bad at first? Rewatch the Raven’s first drive and focus only on Smith.

        He’s downright awful in coverage. He should never, ever be dropped into coverage. But I can forgive that because he’s a pass rusher not a DB or ILB. But his effort is appalling. I think it was the second run play of the game he’s at ROLB. Hood takes a double team like a man. RJF got the tackle and didn’t do great but had him moving backward and eventually got off the block. Smith gets blocked by a TE and just stands there. Doesn’t even try. West runs between RJF and Smith. Smith was like 2 feet from West and didn’t even try to tackle him. He just does this weird head fake and let’s West run by without ever even taking his hands off the TE’s shoulder pads. It was pathetic.

        On the next run Smith was LOLB and they ran to the defenses right. But they left the backside guys unblocked. Ihenacho lined up next to Smith and did exactly what Smith should have done. Ihenacho saw the play, raced across the backfield, and tackled the runner from behind. Smith kind of just trotted over and acted like he was trying to do the same without ever really making the effort.

        I had to turn it off. I got like 5 plays in and had to turn it off because he’s that pathetic. Maybe he gets better but there’s no excuse for that effort ever. I haven’t been very supportive of Ihenacho, and he’s had his fair share of bad plays the past two games, but the guy tries. At least the makes an effort to fly to the ball. I can respect that.

        Kerrigan and Murphy need to be the starters until Smith starts showing more effort. It’s like Smith is taking this for granted. Being a “starter” is largely just for show. We can play Smith or Murphy as much as we went even if they don’t technically start. But maybe a symbolic demotion would help wake him up. And a little less playing time. Something has to change.

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        • sidepull - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM

          Wow Trey thats pretty revealing. That would be just lazy an unmotivated. Your right. Thye ought to him demote due to a lack of effort.

        • Trey Gregory - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:58 PM

          I will finish rewatching and I will come back and give him praise if he makes some plays. But I find guys who take plays off unacceptable. Sometimes their job is just to contain, so it looks like they’re not trying as hard, but I can usually spot the difference. And we could forgive it every now and then. But not this frequent.

  2. colorofmyskinz - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:45 AM

    Wow great win! The greatest thing about this win was that we watched our defense change and turn the corner in front of us. It really seemed like the final stand of the defense. Almost like a season “turning point” for them. They had to believe they could get pressure on the QB and they did. They had to believe they could stop 3rd down and they did.

    The team put this win on the backs of our defense and we watched them change before our eyes. I really think they will show much different looks in games the remaining if the season. It was if they started the season affraid to hit like the NFL hits. They now believe they can. What a great win for our defense we needed that!

    Offense was quite sloppy. We need to show better running for sure. Jones did not have the best of games. 60 total yards. However against I think the best rushing defense in the NFL, so understandable. Garçon great game! Cousins hit 8 different targets. Crowder is a huge play maker and the runback was just short of amazing! Like he was shot out of a canon!! His awareness is amazing.

    After this game it really seems we can beat the eagles!

    Now in the playoff hunt we need some help from Dallas to lose an important interdivision game or 2.

    I we go with wins on big blue, Baltimore, cinnci, and Detroit we will be in a great position after the bye.


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    • redskins12thman - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:53 AM

      i’m really glad for defensive performance too; it’s what I’ve been expecting all season.

      The Ravens losing Wagner on final play of first half really hurt their o-line; Ravens didn’t correct some mistakes until their final drive of the game, but Redskins defense even played much better after the opening drive.

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  3. troylok - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:45 AM

    I think Compton and Foster both played much better than they did in Cleveland. I would like to know the story behind Compton pointing to his head after every tackle. I suppose the coach told them to play smart. Whatever he told them, it worked.

    Ihenacho turns out to be a much better tackler than Bruton. If he can stay healthy, he’s going to help.

    I saw Fuller in the middle of a few plays. He’s solidifying his position as a nickel corner. The other guys made some plays as well.

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    • redskins12thman - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:57 AM

      It is 100% clear that Bruton, Phillips and even DHall were liabilities to the defensive unit as a whole. Ihenacho has clearly been stronger; he missed a couple of tackles but still a clear upgrade.

      Fuller has done well against Browns and Ravens, but in truth he hasn’t been tested yet; the slot receivers of these two teams are much weaker compared to Steelers, Cowboys, Giants, Eagles and Lions. The next two games are critical for the nickel back.

      I hope Breeland and Cravens can both return this week.

      Reply Report comment
      • Trey Gregory - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:36 PM

        That’s a good point. Phillips had to cover Eli Rogers, Cole Beasley, and either Sheppard or Cruz (even if not for a full game). Fuller hasn’t faced anyone like that yet.

        But that’s good. Allow him to ease in. I think Breeland would have looked a lot different if he didn’t have to face AB and Dez weeks 1 and 2. I think it rattled his confidence. Hopefully Fuller gets his feet wet and starts feeling good before he faces stiffer competition.

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  4. chimps000 - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:55 AM

    Compton had his best game of the year, foster was better, murphy and baker made plays, fuller looked to be around the ball- the defense really stepped up.

    Cousins had a couple boneheaded plays, he took a sack where he saw the free rusher (not blindside) and then just slowly turned and inexplicably let the same rusher sack him and take him out of FG range. That was a minus 3 point play on the QB.

    Someone needs to tell gruden that timeouts need to be saved to score points at the end of the half- he wastes a timeout to call for a long pass down the sideline on 3rd and 1, and then that same lost timeout probably cost us 3 points at the end of the first half. It’s one thing to call a timeout to prevent a delay of game
    penalty on a critical 3rd or 4th down, it’s another to just change a play call to a long bomb (not kirks strength).

    Ugly game, but you have to give it up to the defense.

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  5. Eli - Oct 10, 2016 at 7:03 AM

    Just an outstanding accomplishment, going on the road and getting two hard fought wins against two teams above .500 at the time.

    I’m very proud of how this organization is heading in the right direction.

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  6. sidepull - Oct 10, 2016 at 7:15 AM

    Good to be a Redskin this morning and not a Raven.
    Thank you Baltimore. Thank you for calling primarily passing plays when the run was effective. Thank Perriman for letting a sure TD go through your hands and then also for not getting both feet down on your second opportunity at redemption. Thanks for not scoring a TD after fumbling the ball and allowing the Redskins to regain possession on their own 20. Thank you Harbawl for calling your poorly executed fake STs play when you surely could have used those points you decided not to take, at the end of the game. Thank you Steve Smith for not coming back into and taking the rest of the game of to recover. And thank you Flacco for just being Flako yesterday. Just thank you Bmore. HTTR

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  7. ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© - Oct 10, 2016 at 7:59 AM


    Another week where I don’t have to be depressed all week!

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  8. redskins12thman - Oct 10, 2016 at 8:10 AM

    Kelley only had three carries but he did alright. That’s a positive sign!

    Reply Report comment
  9. renhoekk2 - Oct 10, 2016 at 8:44 AM

    Did Gruden do the Vulcan Mind Meld on Trestman after the first quarter? It appears that the Ravens started using Gruden’s Arena League game plan from the first two games. I guess turning around and handing the ball off to West for 7 yards was making him and Flacco look bad.

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    • bangkokben - Oct 10, 2016 at 10:09 AM

      During the off season debate of whether the Redskins needed a NT and whether they could stop the run. The point was constantly made that the Redskins wouldn’t be able to stop the run and that the opposition would be ABLE to run down our throats. This is truer today than at any point during the off season. However, one of my counterpoints was that offensive coordinators rarely stick to what works and out think themselves. Mark that as two weeks in a row. Coordinators should continue to pound the rock with the hot hand but I expect that they will continue to what they do — mix it up — to their own detriment.

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      • chimps000 - Oct 10, 2016 at 10:58 AM

        totally agree- crowell and the ravens west were not given enough carries- if i was oc against skins d i run until they prove they can stop me… especially with ravens who have poor WRs…

        Reply Report comment
        • redskins12thman - Oct 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM

          Ravens were hurt when Steve Smith was forced out of the game too.

        • Trey Gregory - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:44 PM

          Yeah I kind of like the Ravens receivers if they’re all healthy. Wallace and Smith are a little small but they get the job done. If you’re going to spend a ton of money on a QB and pass rush then that’s a pretty decent receiving corps to scrounge up.

          The best way to make opposing OCs pass is for us to play with a lead. We need to get started better than we did yesterday. We can’t count on that every week.

          And, not to beat a dead horse, but you can stop the run without a nose tackle. 4-3 teams do it every week. Just have two guys play 3 technique and 2 guys play 5 or 9 technique. Problem solved. I do support them trying out the big boys today though.

        • chimps000 - Oct 10, 2016 at 7:53 PM

          trey- u like the ravens wrs? Mike Wallace hasn’t produced in years, he always dropped balls but his speed kept him paid- I don’t think he has the same speed anymore. Steve Smith is a hall of fame wr- but he is old, and got hurt. I don’t know perriman well, but I saw him drop a perfect TD throw from Flacco, and then was unable to get two feet in bounds at the end of the game. Man, thats a bad unit.

        • Trey Gregory - Oct 11, 2016 at 1:43 AM

          I like the Ravens WRs in context. I’m not saying they’re a top WR corps but I’m saying that they’re pretty solid for a group Baltimore hasn’t spent a lot of resources on. If you’re not going to spend a lot of resources on WRs, you could do worse.

          They spend less on both Smith and Wallace than we do on DJax and Garçon each. That allows them to have one of the best pass rushing tandems in the league along with a franchise QB and a top ranked defense.

          Perriman was a first round pick. So that’s spending some significant resources on a WR. But it keeps the cap hit low and gives Flacco a good target for 5 years. Permian hasn’t been great but he hasn’t really had much of an opportunity to work with a real QB either. Smith is still a monster when healthy. This injury could have happened to a 20 year old too. It was just one of those things. And I’ve never, ever liked Mike Wallace. But for 2 mil with Flacco’s arm? Just to have as a deep threat while Smith and Perriman are the real guys? Yeah I’ll take that.

  10. mattphillipsdc - Oct 10, 2016 at 9:11 AM

    Kudos to the defense, especially Barry for dialing up the blitz much more and for making the defense do tackling drills all week. Please continue doing both more blitzing and tackling drills at practice. Another outstanding game for Josh Norman. The Ravens were affraid to throw the ball to Norman’s side and when they did Norman held your own and did an outstanding job on the TD that was overturned, by narrowing the sideline so the receiver didn’t have room to get both feet in.

    On offense I’d like to see more runs to outside and Jones to use his size and hit the hole like Riggins used to. With Jones size and speed he could easily get a couple extra yards if he just hit the hole and stop dancing. I’m going to cut Cousins slack because of the wind. HTTR

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  11. bangkokben - Oct 10, 2016 at 9:37 AM

    The best rushing defense is an offense that eats clock.

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  12. sidepull - Oct 10, 2016 at 9:54 AM

    Ha ha Bmore OC coordinator just fired.
    Redskins got Saints DC coordinator fired….there is a pattern here…..

    Reply Report comment
    • bangkokben - Oct 10, 2016 at 10:11 AM

      No shock. That gameplan was cause.

      Reply Report comment
    • Trey Gregory - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:45 PM

      They fired their OC after playing us in 2012 too.

      Reply Report comment
  13. COSSkinsFan - Oct 10, 2016 at 9:59 AM

    Per Mike Jones Skins hosting a guy I wanted them to draft a few years ago, Phil Taylor. I hope his knee checks out and this gets done.

    Reply Report comment
    • COSSkinsFan - Oct 10, 2016 at 10:43 AM

      And Pot Roast is also visiting.

      Reply Report comment
    • Trey Gregory - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:48 PM

      Am I crazy for wanting them to sign both? Just go ahead and say yes. Taylor had all kinds of potential coming out of college but never really lived up to it. Then the knee and all that. I’m intrigued but I want to hedge my bet. Knighton has played very well in the past but did not play great for us last year. He wasn’t awful though. PFF had him ranked 28 out of 70 DTs. That’s not good but it’s not bad. So again, I want him but I want to hedge my bet. Between Knighton and Taylor we should be able to get decent DT play week to week. Not great, but adequate.

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      • COSSkinsFan - Oct 10, 2016 at 3:33 PM

        Not crazy, it would be great to get both of them. I would view Taylor as a guy we could maybe see sticking with us beyond this year if he can stay healthy and perform, while pot roast could get us through this year. Rotating them both would at least keep them fresh.

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        • Trey Gregory - Oct 11, 2016 at 1:52 AM

          I had a chance to rewatch the first quarter and pay closer attention. I have to say, Ioannidis surprised me. He wasn’t great or anything but he didn’t suck. But he allowed us to have two good DEs with Baker and Hood. Hood is wasted as a NT but looked pretty, pretty good at DE.

          We haven’t actually played a lot of 3 man fronts. We really haven’t been a 3-4 team. I assume because we didn’t have a nose tackle. But maybe Ioannidis is the guy. I would love to see this lineup more often: Murphy LOLB, Baker LDE, Ioannidis NT, Hood RDE, Kerrigan ROLB. Then just take Ioannidis out in nickel and make Murphy the LDE. Also replace Foster with a Cravens and make Fuller the starting slot corner. I like that lineup. I think it would work well enough and be less embarrassing than it has been.

          But I’m still hoping they bring in a FA NT for depth.

  14. ohioskins - Oct 10, 2016 at 10:04 AM

    ‘Skins have won 3 games in a row now; 2 on the road and 2 against teams with a winning record. I saw some commenters on another blog saying, ‘well, these teams didn’t have a winning record last year, and probably won’t at the end of this year.” Screw what these teams did last year, this is THIS year, and as far as what their records will be at the end of the year, who the hell knows. The point is they had a winning record when we played them, that’s what matters. Are there holes in this team and flaws that will have to be addressed? Hell yes. Did they have to fight and claw to get those wins? Again, hell yes! But for my money, I’m damn happy and proud that they’ve shown the guts and the tenacity to scratch and claw and pull out these wins. I’m so happy that this team has the will to win and the character to find a way to win. It’s been a while since we’ve had a team with that kind of character…. #HTTR!

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    • bangkokben - Oct 10, 2016 at 10:16 AM

      Five road wins in a row going back to last season: Chicago, Philly, Dallas, NYGiants, and Baltimore. Say what you will about the quality but that’s beating equal teams at their place (for the most part). Complain all we must about the issues with this team but one thing that corrected from the past: learning to win games. In the past, the Redskins found the way to be Cleveland, Baltimore, or New York. Moving in the right direction with the ability to improve is a helluva a lot better than hitting on all cylinders and just getting by.

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      • COSSkinsFan - Oct 10, 2016 at 10:37 AM

        I’ll take ugly wins over pretty loses any day. You’re spot on, we are battling and finding ways to win. I remember games in the past where it seemed like we got down and started waiting for someone else to make a play. This team is much more resilient and plays with heart.

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    • Trey Gregory - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:52 PM

      People are also stupid. The Ravens are one of the most well respected organizations across the league. The Giants were under Cofflin but maybe not as much right now.

      Still. Both teams had QBs who won the SB (and I think they were both SB MVPs?). Harbough is a great coach and Ozzie is a great GM. Baltimore has one of the top ranked pass and rush defenses right now and their offense isn’t too shabby. I’ll be shocked neither Baltimore or NY have winning records by the end of the season.

      And Baltimore did bad last year because their two best players (Suggs and Flacco) were on IR. Come on people.

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  15. warpath1 - Oct 10, 2016 at 10:21 AM

    I didnt see the whole game. Is Preston Smith on vacation or something. I didnt see anything about him, or did I miss it. Thank god the forgot to run the ball in the second half. HTTR

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    • chimps000 - Oct 10, 2016 at 10:56 AM

      he made one nice tackle on a RB in space, otherwise he was pretty invisible.

      Reply Report comment
    • Trey Gregory - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:54 PM

      He makes me want to claw my eyes out. The guy is so talented too. It’s just effort from what I can tell right now. He will make a splash a couple times a game but he goes through long periods where it seems like he’s bored and doesn’t want to be there.

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  16. greed - Oct 10, 2016 at 11:18 AM

    kirk has to clean up his innacuracy on deep passes to djax he hits that pass its game set match in sayn that djax clearly not 100% , kirk also has to stop starring down reed every defense in the leauge knows thats where he wants to go! Seems like he getting in a bad habbit of making a bad INT every week not sure what to make of Defense in stopping the run did ravens not run enough or did barry make adjustments to bait ravens to pass? Either way there still work to do in that area , again gd tough win bv if kirk cleans up little things some of theese games wouldnt be as close. Game remind me of dallas kirk doernt throw pick in endzone we couldve been up ten or atleast 6 , against ravens kirk doesnt overthrow djax we up 13, good thing is team SEEMS to be improving every week in areas now we need to put it all together and put one on the eagles ! HTTR

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  17. wvredskins - Oct 10, 2016 at 11:33 AM

    How about Matt iaonnadis?! I thought he played excellent. All over the field and show him in numerous plays! I didn’t watch him the whole game and I am sure he had his mistakes, but I’m def intrigued and can’t wait to hear cooley’s break down on him!

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    • Trey Gregory - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:56 PM

      Will you do me a favor and report back what Cooley says about Ioannidis? I didn’t get a good read on him and haven’t had time to rewatch much.

      Or if anyone has their own thoughts on him I would appreciate it. Or a link to Cooley’s comments.

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  18. lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 1:13 PM

    Kirk is getting an Osweiler contract, the tag or walking papers, here’s why:

    How do you want to cut it? Is he inconsistent or has he regressed? Are they one in the same? Sorting out the emotion from yesterday’s game first I want to highlight the good. The o-line once again had a great day. Kirk had a lot of time in the pocket. Suggs got a sack and there was some slight pressure but overall he had a clean pocket. He spread the ball around. His first pass to Desean was a big time throw, in the face of pressure hit as he threw and delivered a perfect ball. The fumbled snap that he threw away that saved field position. Very heads up play, knowing the situation and getting rid of the ball negated what could’ve been a very negative play. Glad he didn’t get hurt because he was basically suplexed on that play.

    Now to the bad. The pick. I don’t know what it is. It wasn’t the wrong read it was just a bad throw. This wasn’t a stare down throw this was his second or third read and he just didn’t get the ball over the defender, I’m assuming he didn’t see him. If he had gotten the ball out in front of Reed or put it up in a jump ball situation that could’ve been a big play. That’s just something we can’t have.Throwing from the shadow of the goal post you need to be perfect. Cousins in the clutch has not looked good. He’s certainly a serviceable QB, we can win games with him but he’s not ready to make up for our deficiencies. We’ve seen what elite QB’s with bad defenses help make up for those mistakes. Peyton was in a shoot out every week. The Pack have their stints when the defense falls off. Kirk isn’t there I don’t even know if I can put a yet at the end of that. Through 5 games we’ve yet to see him take a step forward.

    Our defense showed up in a major way and that helped him out a lot for that I think Scot is going to start investing into that side of the ball because we’re not that far away on offense. I’m not saying the offense doesn’t need addressing, we still have to resign d jax and pierre made a great case for himself yesterday. Reed’s taken care of but Crowder is coming up in two years. The best investment now would just be to take care of our core of playmakers address the holes on defense and over paying Kirk won’t help. If we fix this defense and retain our offense anyone could QB this team. No need to break the bank and set the teams development back. Franchise tag is hefty but if he won’t come down off that number I could see a situation where they let Kirk walk. Look at Denver granted Siemian and Sudfeld aren’t really comparable but I wouldn’t be surprised if we drafted another QB. Looks like we just brought in Pot Roast hopefully that pans out.

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    • greed - Oct 10, 2016 at 2:46 PM

      i agree with you on some things , need to find a way to keep both wr ‘s but as long GRUDEN the coach kirk not going anywhere unless he has a total meltdown or a QB like drew brees becomes available , kirk so far is playing ok and seems to be slightly improving each week so that will play its self out , dont see gruden starting over from square 1 with a youn qb unless he forced by injuries or management

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      • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 4:20 PM

        I agree with you, completely on the receivers, but unfortunately I don’t think it’s Gruden’s call about Kirk. He’ll have input and I’m sure he’ll lobby for Kirk but for what? We have a competent veteran backup, in Colt, that could probably actually start if we let Kirk go and drafted someone else. Gruden loves Kirk but “specialist coaches” (and I put that in quotations because look at Dalton, RGIII and Cousins.. not really resume highlights) have wandering eyes. Gruden will only love Kirk until Scot walks in and says hey we’re going after this guy if he falls to us. Then Gruden has a woody for the next guy. Are there any sure fire Qb’s coming out of next years draft? We didn’t think so this year and look at the rookie crop now. I don’t mean to be doom and gloom about Kirk. I should’ve prefaced this by the MADTV guy might be swayed if he can turn it on and play lights out like last year. That’s his only out. Scraping together wins isn’t the kind of result Scot was looking in this evaluation. Are we willing to bet the farm and pay out that kind of cash assuming this will be his hallmark? Slow start then laser focus elite level play through the back half of the season. I think if that happens he gets tag and Scot says “Nah unnhhh DO IT AGAIN!” Probably the only scenario he gets tagged.

        One interesting point now that I’ve moved on from Kirk mentally. I wonder if not having a veteran starter ahead of him hindered his development. Maybe I’m just making excuses for a guy I thought showed promise. Even though my stance was “we’ll see” I fully expected him to earn that contract. I think we all did predicting a season with 10+ wins. However he came in with Robert. I wanted to say somewhere in the paragraph above to the effect of, Kirk had his opportunity to hold the clipboard let’s give him his walking papers start Colt and develop another Rodgers. But then I thought “Is Kirk a little inconsistent because this is who he is or because he hasn’t had a better example in front of him?” It’s kind of the norm to see QB’s come in and start right away but back when Tom Thibodeau was union chief you saw a more conventional sit an learn approach. Remember when Favre was trying to come back to GB and they were like “Nah, we like the kid.” Granted Rodgers pretty much let it be public knowledge that Favre never really took him under the wing but, maybe just seeing what goes into preparation. How he approaches his reps. Kirk had to learn everything with RGIII instead of having someone to learn from. Oh wait we did have Rex, is that who he’s modeling his career trajectory after? All of that aside I know the CBA maybe puts a little bit of a chokehold on sitting QB’s because 5 years is not a lot of time. Just a thought/excuse.

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    • COSSkinsFan - Oct 10, 2016 at 3:47 PM

      The way he has performed, I could see them letting Kirk walk or tag and trade. Scott has said that it’s not about one player. In the off season I wanted to sign Kirk long term and didn’t really favor giving Norman all that money. Norman has shown to be worth it. Kirk has done well, but has missed some throws. How many 50yd plus td’s to DeSean has he missed already? He made a good play on the fumbled snap, but how many times has he made mental errors that have cost us points? We can definitely win with him but if he wants top dollar then he can’t keep consistently make these mistakes.

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      • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 4:34 PM

        I agree. I like your tag and trade idea, I guess I never thought of trading Kirk but that would actually be really smart. Assuming he’d sign, he could hold out all offseason and sign after forcing his way back. Well can you trade a tagged player? If we could trade Kirk for two solid defensive players and Colt can maintain his level of play before he got injured, we look like a real contender.

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        • COSSkinsFan - Oct 10, 2016 at 5:00 PM

          I believe it works that you can tag a franchise player as either exclusive or non-exclusive rights. Non exclusive franchise players can negotiate with other teams and then you have the right to match. If you choose not to match you get the next 2 years1st rounders. You can also use the transition tag and I think the compensation for that is a first and a third. I’m not sure how it works as far as the player signing the tender or not. I’m not sure if we could trade him this season, if thats what you’re asking but I’m not a fan of that. If it was allowed his salary would make it difficult to find a partner and Colt is a decent fill in but I wouldn’t want him to start for a season. He gets injured quite a bit.

        • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 5:14 PM

          I don’t want to trade him in season. The deadline is only weeks away. I was thinking a sort of Norman-ish move where we tag him and then trade away his contract. The Panthers were dumb to not attempt to trade simply letting go of Norman without getting anything in return hurt their development. That’s still a young team. As are we, so there you go Rich! 4 months later and we finally have an answer to your “Is anyone on the skins roster tradeable?” question, Kirk and Niles Paul.

          Paul looked so “great in camp” and Davis is getting all the backup 2 TE touches.

        • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 5:16 PM

          And the next 2 1st rounders so if we tag him at the end of the season instead of waiting up into the deadline. Could we get an additional first rounder for this year if we pull off a trade before the draft?

        • COSSkinsFan - Oct 10, 2016 at 5:26 PM

          I think so, it rarely happens though. The last time I remember it happening was when the Panthers signed Sean Gilbert away from us, so it’s been a long time.

        • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 5:35 PM

          Desperate times. I’m already shopping from the 49ers defense.

        • chimps000 - Oct 10, 2016 at 8:00 PM

          I don’t think there is going to be much of a trade market for cousins. He doesn’t have the big arm, he makes critical mistakes, he just isn’t going to get a big contract in free agency, or command a big trade price. Osweiler is a huge QB with a big arm, who was young and not much known about him. The Texans were paying for upside.

          Kirk has a very good oline and very good skill players (except for at RB). And he has been mediocre through 5 games. If you put Matt Stafford on the Skins, he would look great.

          Kirk has some very good throws, some awful throws, some great plays avoiding the sack and negative play, and some plays taking terrible sacks that QBs just can’t take. You can win with him with a good team around him, but he just isnt worth a lot to other teams.

        • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 8:10 PM

          What you said made absolute sense but desperation and incompetent GMs make for good comment thread fodder. If Sanchez and Bradford keep getting jobs trust Kirk can get one. Cutler is still employed and Romo is going to unseat Dak in a few weeks/ Up is down my friend. He might not be comparatively big and strong but he’s smart. He could use some more polish but in the right system he can thrive. A team with a good defense and decent weapons on offense would take him in a heartbeat. Cap room could be an issue getting someone to eat the tag but maybe they let him play on that and offer him the big money deal the following year.

          We had a trouble moving RGIII because people knew he was getting cut. No need to give up anything when you can get it for free. Kirk’s future is a little murkier.

        • chimps000 - Oct 10, 2016 at 9:12 PM

          Sanchez has bounced around on cheap deals, nobody has given him big money, and he was cut from denver. Cutler has a big arm, and teams still aren’t going to be giving up anything for him at this point. We couldn’t move Robert even if he had a reasonable contract- this past offseason, the Browns were the only team to offer him money- and the money was still was only 6.75 million guaranteed.

          Bradford was a number 1 overall who looked very good last year with poor offensive talent on the eagles, and he has a big arm. His question has been health. I think Bradford has a very good future, if he can avoid major injury.

          Nobody is giving up much in trade value or free agency cash for Kirk based on what he has shown us. He doesn’t have the size teams like (Osweiler 6’7″), the big arm teams like, or the highly drafted pedigree teams like. And he has a great supporting cast yet he has looked mediocre. I’m fine with him as the redskins QB, as long as he is paid per his abilty. Otherwise, I would roll with McCoy, hell sudfeld i guess, and draft another QB.

        • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 9:39 PM

          Robert had a number of things working against him, perceived immaturity.. (not so perceived now with his affair and resistance to getting down or throwing the ball away) technique was an issue, scheme. Robert needed the right team to pick him up and no one was wasting 16M on a project QB with health issues.

          Bradford has had too many devastating injuries going back to OK. That’s what’s hurt his money. Not really applicable for Kirk. I ‘m not sure why size is playing such a big portion in your rationale. Size is trumped by wins and potential. Sure measurables are a big deal in the draft when calculating risk, potential/upside etc because you haven’t seen the kid play so you have to project what they can do and size is a good indicator. Kirk has already shown he can win games. Would a team pass up on Wilson because he’s my height? No, because he’s shown he can win games too. Is Wilson as good without that dominating D? IDK but that’s the type of team that will roll the dice on Kirk. Wilson just got an extension if I’m not mistaken. You’re bringing up Brock but Denver let him and all his size walk right out of the door for a guy who is literally the same size as Cousins, 10lbs heavier. Kirk is young, durable and has more upside than both Bradford and Sanchez combined. We’ve sen it all from them, Kirk is only in his second full year. If there’s no market for him why did we tag, exclusively at that, him this year? Letting him test the market and find out his real worth would’ve been a great tactic if your logic were fact. He’d see no other team is going to pay him that money. We didn’t want to lose him because we know there are teams out here desperate enough to overpay on his limited sample size. Hell there were people within our own fan base screaming pay him whatever he wants and just cut him later before the big money hits. Desperation drives the market.

        • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 9:46 PM

          “I’m fine with him as the redskins QB, as long as he is paid per his abilty. Otherwise, I would roll with McCoy, hell sudfeld i guess, and draft another QB.”
          For the record we’re in agreeance we just have different views on what his market would be.

        • chimps000 - Oct 11, 2016 at 6:57 AM

          there was a market for kirk this past offseason- he was coming off a very good performance, he didn’t have much tape
          on him before that year (the tape that was there wasn’t great, but small sample size)- if he continues this mediocre play on a stacked offense, im saying his market has drastically gone down.

          Wilson and bree’s are the exceptions- teams like big QBs, it’s just a fact. My point is kirk isn’t small, but he’s not the prototypical 6’5 teams like.

          The other factor is that if desperate teams are going to pick up a qb in free agency they want a guy with sizzle to sell season tickets. Kirk had some sizzle last offseason. Osweiler had sizzle and prototypical traits teams want. Unless Kirk really turns it up, there is no way he is getting an osweiler contract.

        • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 11, 2016 at 5:31 PM

          Alright so these are all the other exceptions buddy and I’m sure I left some off the list:
          Russell Wilson – 5’11”
          Drew Brees – 6′
          Johnny Manziel – 6′ (still says a lot that the Browns drafted him and he’s barely touching 6′)
          Tyrod Taylor – 6’1″
          Aaron Rodgers – 6’2″
          Brian Hoyer – 6’2″ (a back up now but has been a starter)
          Andy Dalton – 6’2″
          Ryan Fitzpatrick – 6’2″
          Teddy Bridgewater – 6’2″

          Kirk is taller than all of them at 6′ 3″. What is your point? I could go on but like I said before size is trumped by ability. Point is deperation drives the market. This isn’t the draft. Scroll down and read Trey Gregory’s comment, there are still people with OUR fanbase that are fine with overpaying for Kirk. What makes you think that a GM with a failing franchise and a hot seat won’t pull the trigger on Kirk? I’m not comparing Kirk to Bradford, I’m simply saying that desperation drives the market. The Vikings were desperate for a QB and took Bradford. Let’s think about that for a second, your second year QB has devastating knee injury so what do you do? Bringin a guy that’s had TWO devastating knee injuries in TWO years? Why would they do that? They’re desperate and he was “the best” (ultimate relative term) to get someone in there even though they already had a veteran on the roster who knew the offense. You’re trying to make sense of the nonsensical and it’s not working. All logic goes out of the window when it comes to QB’s. Stop lingering on Kirk’s size this isn’t the draft, a competent QB coach would be drooooooling to get Kirk and “fix him.” You keep harping on the fact that Sam Bradford is a former number one pick so he isn’t viwed int the same light. Well you contradict yourself when you “Bradford has bounced around from team to team on cheap deals” So what merit does his former #1 pick status hold in that statement? None! Brady was picked in the 19th round and he’s also sub 6’5″ so what are you saying that trumps his rings? Kirk has won someone will gamble on him. Point Blank.

        • chimps000 - Oct 11, 2016 at 7:45 AM

          you are comparing kirk to bradford- i am saying teams do not see them in the same way. There’s a reason why bradford went for 1st round pick, no way a team gives up anything close to that for kirk.

    • Trey Gregory - Oct 11, 2016 at 1:31 AM

      Since it’s a side conversation. I think we let FJax and Garçon walk next year and I think that’s the right call. It’s better to let these guys go a year or two too early than hold on too long and get stuck with the bill. They’re getting old, we have Reed and Crowder, and we spent a 1st on a WR this year. Let them walk and we have money to spend on the D in free agency.

      For Cousins. You guys are getting a little ahead of yourselves after only 5 games. But let’s assume he plays like this all year. He still has a lot of negotiating power because of a $23 mil tag and who is an equal or better option? It would benefit them to try and sign him to a long term deal for less than the $20 mil he wanted but more than some of you are going to like. Why? Because it allows them to have stability at the most important position while they find the next guy. I wanted them to pay Cousins this offseason because either he becomes the franchise QB or he’s a good enough stop gap until we do. That’s still true.

      This version of Cousins still allows us to win. That gives us time to be patient and let the right guy fall to us. We don’t have to trade up like we did for RG3 or pay a mediocre FA too much money like Houston did with Osweiler. We have our Osweiler already. Now we just need to draft our Prescott or Wilson. This version of Cousins also allows us to not start a young QB before he’s ready. Being able to develop is a huge luxury. It’s worth overpaying Cousins. All of these reasons make it worth overpaying him.

      It’s not that easy to find guys who are even as good as Cousins. It could take us 3 or 4 years to find the next guy. Or longer. Keeping Cousins keeps Snyder from pulling a desperation move like he did with RG3 then forcing a QB to start too soon like he did with RG3. It’s as much about the next guy as it is about Cousins.

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      • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 11, 2016 at 6:56 PM

        I agree to a certain extent. It’s funny because you see the logic in not wanting to be stuck with WR past their prime but will fork over an elite contract to Kirk just cause you’re hoping the Kirk we’ve seen the last 5 weeks is an aberration. I don’t think a three year deal would hurt if we retained one receiver. We need Jax or a player with proven deep play abillity. Does Crowder fit that or Doctson? Maybe any of the other receivers that haven’t even gotten a catch this season? We have a decent amount of picks for next year we can address the D that way. We went into this offseason “broke” and still managed to make JNO the highest paid cornerback in the league. We’ll have money. Especially if we let Kirk walk.

        I’ll pass on signing Kirk. This is too Dan Snyderish for me. If he comes down on his number, fine. Pay him. But if he still wants 20/year I’d staple the franchise tag to hig eyelids and push him into rush hour traffic. We already have a eteran QB that has won games for us. Remember he was the QB the Skins chose to offer a deal to not Kirk. This could’ve been the plan all along. Get a look at Kirk season one he was bad then better. Ok Let’s sign Colt as an insurance plan. If Kirk can’t get it done, it’s cost us 20M but we have a capable QB on a team friendly deal so we aren’t pulling a Carolina and making blind decisions based on a spreadsheet. The world doesn’t stop if Kirk leaves. If he turns it on, and I mean elite level play, similar to last year where he was lights out. That may force Scot’s hand into at least tagging him. Maybe he folds to Kirk’s demands at that point but I wouldn’t. Hell the money Kirk is asking for is basically what we’re paying him on the tag. TIf we tag him this year it’s like we gave him a 3 year deal and opted out of the final year. We’re forcing our hand instead of signing him but paying roughly the same amount. a 16M contract starts at like 12M and raises to 16 right? So what would a 20M a year deal start at? We’re paying him 19 now. That’s basically his guarantee plus his base salary. Same for next year.

        It’s not as easy to find guys as good as Cousins (I’m assuming “good” is a relative statement) hmm Wentz, Prescott. Kessler looks decent, Siemian, Brisset, Bridgewater and all drafted while we had our eggs in the Kirk basket. Time to diversify. Aside from Wentz and Bridgewater I think we had a shot at drafting all of them. There is a such thing as being too patient, you know championship windows in the NFL close like *THAT* for teams that aren’t the Pats.

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  19. Jimmy kubas - Oct 10, 2016 at 6:45 PM

    I think Kirk is getting better every game…the line is giving him just enough time to throw..not a lot but just enough… Last year was his first as a starter for the whole season… Teams have tape on him and grudens offence…they know they gonna pass…the plays are obvious… Get Rob more carries and run the ball…it will open up play action and bootlegs…then the O will b firing on all cylinders… We have to put points up to make the other team pass…I know this is cliche…. Run RoB..screens to jones

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    • chimps000 - Oct 10, 2016 at 8:01 PM

      The line is one of the better olines in the league, unquestionably.

      And if we had a good RB, people would stop complaining about our “bad” run blocking.

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      • Trey Gregory - Oct 11, 2016 at 2:54 AM

        Ehhhh. But there’s a difference between pass protection and run blocking. This line is pretty good at pass protection (I don’t know about unquestionably one of the best in the league though) but they’re below average run blockers. It’s not all on the RBs.

        They should be excellent run blockers. They have to be one of the bigger lines in the league. With 2 first round picks, 2 thirds, and a high priced free agent. So really they’re underperforming. But I give them a break because Long just came in at center and Scherff is still young and learning. Scherff need to put it together by the bye though. I think they will improve and Long and Lauvao get used to playing with each other. Lauvoa may still be a little banged up too. Because I’m telling you, Williams and Lauvao get a monster push when they’re healthy and on the same page. Add Long to that and our power run game should be great. Add Scherff to that and we should be able to pick up 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 on any team in the league. But we don’t. They get pushed back and the RB has no chance. They’re still a work in progress.

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        • chimps000 - Oct 11, 2016 at 8:04 AM

          disagree- i see the line getting push and creating holes- im not saying they are the hogs of the 80s, but if we had a good back they would be getting a lot more credit for their run blocking.

    • lezziemcdykerson - Oct 10, 2016 at 8:18 PM

      Mehhhh if he wants that elite level paycheck he better make it work. Kirk has plenty of time in the pocket I think they only got something like 6 hits on him 1 sack. Out of 41 drop backs. Everyone knows they’re going to pass, we have no run game. Everyone knew McNab, Peyton, Brady, Brees were going to throw it 112 times per game too. It’s just there is no defense for the perfect pass. Those guys threw a lot of perfect balls and they’re getting paid big money because of it. Kirk wants a check their size with nothing to show for it. He’s a few years too late to be making these kinds of demands. Snyder’s checkbook is now hanging out with Trump’s tax returns. He won’t be seeing that money. Snap back to reality Oh there goes gravity #Headazz

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